• City of Cambridge Maryland
  • City of Cambridge Maryland
  • City of Cambridge Maryland
  • City of Cambridge Maryland
  • City of Cambridge Maryland
  • City of Cambridge Maryland
  • City of Cambridge Maryland
  • City of Cambridge Maryland
  • City of Cambridge Maryland
  • City of Cambridge Maryland
  • City of Cambridge Maryland
  • City of Cambridge Maryland
  • City of Cambridge Maryland
  • City of Cambridge Maryland
  • City of Cambridge Maryland
  • City of Cambridge Maryland
  • City of Cambridge Maryland
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BZA Minutes

October 22, 2013

The Board of Zoning Appeals for the City of Cambridge met at 7:00 p.m. on Tuesday, October 22nd, 2013, in the City Council Chambers located at 305 Gay Street, Cambridge, Maryland.

Board Members in Attendance: Jane Devlin, Chair; Ted Brooks, Vice Chair; Frank Cooke; Brian Manning, Wendell Foxwell.

Other representatives in Attendance: Dan Brandewie, City Planner II;

Ms. Devlin called the meeting to order. She conducted a roll call of Board members in attendance. The Board will follow the following order of the agenda tonight unless I hear a motion to modify the agenda. If it's acceptable with the Board we will be moving the approval of minutes to the next meeting of both August 27th and September 24th as well as finding of facts for BZA case number 2, FY13/14. We will carry them forward to the November meeting if that's acceptable. Board members properly moved and seconded to carry these items to the November meeting. Motion carried.

Ms. Devlin proceeded to review the order of proceedings as follows: The Board of Appeals is a quasi-judicial body whose decision can be appealed to the circuit court. As such, anyone wishing to present information to the Board or testify needs to be sworn in. Even if you remotely think you are going to testify please stand. It will make our proceedings go much quicker. First we will hear a staff report on the case where there will be questions and answers from the Board Members. Second, we allow the appellate to present their case with questions and answers. Next we will allow any supporting or opposing parties to speak. We ask that the public, staff, interested individuals refrain from interrupting the presentations unless recognized by the Chairperson. We would prefer to have the individuals complete their testimony or presentation before opening it up for discussion. After presentation by all parties there will be time for discussion, questions and answers, cross examination if needed. The Board will then close this portion of the public hearing and deliberate. We will not take any additional testimony at that point unless authorized by the Board. At the end of deliberation the Board will reach a decision. This meeting is being recorded. Anyone who may testify or present information this evening please stand and raise your right hand. This will include the city, the appellate and any witnesses for or against the matter called. If you are not sworn in, you may not testify. Do you solemnly swear or affirm under penalties of perjury that the testimony you are about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

A number of individuals took the oath and proceeded to state their name for the record.


BZA 01 FY 13/14, Dobson's Dogs-Special Exception to allow a seasonal hotdog cart at Cannery Way.

Ms. Devlin: Mr. Brandewie, before you start your staff report I would like to clarify that though the agenda is stated correctly, the public notice called for Cannery Way and other locations as may be authorized by the City Commissioners of Cambridge. As you recall from the last meeting, the only issue to be discussed is Cannery Way.

Mr. Brandewie stated that is correct. The only change I think that's before you is to consider Cannery Way as a different location for the cart than what was originally submitted. At prior meetings, the discussion centered around putting a vendor's cart at Long Wharf Park and another consideration was to consider the area around Race and Cedar Street. The latter location was never considered or is up for consideration. The BZA did give approval with some conditions for the vendor's cart at Long Wharf Park at the August meeting. Mr. Dobson has since withdrawn from that location and he is seeking approval for a cart at Cannery Way. He has gone to City Council and staff has provided copies of the Council minutes on this topic where it was approved be a 3-1 vote. There were no conditions placed on this action by Council other than the fact that it does have to get the Board of Zoning Appeals approval.

Ms. Devlin pointed out one clarification in that according City Council minutes, there was the condition that this is specifically for Thursdays from 10:00 to 2:00 and specifically for the fall. Anything after that he needs to go back to the city.

Ms. Devlin requested that Mr. Dobson make his presentation.

Mr. Dobson: Good evening. My name is Rodney Dobson, I'm from (inaudible), I am a hotdog vendor, Dobson's Dogs, "The Dogs That Don't Bark". I sell hotdogs, hot sauce, potato chips and sodas. I was asking for Thursdays. I'm glad to come to Cambridge on Thursdays from 10:00 to 2:00. I didn't know they had a second Saturday here, so I don't know if I have to bring it up again if I wanted to do it on that Saturday too. But I would like to do it on Thursdays from 10:00 to 2:00.

Ms. Devlin: Mr. Dobson, I know that your application has been in the city process for a while. When you bring up the subject of a second Saturday you are basically asking to use city property which means you would have to bring that in front of City Council. So if you're comfortable with seeing that...what I see from the records you would only be approved for fall 2013. You would then go apply to City Council again and then you could open up more discussion. If you wish to do second Saturdays in the meantime you would still have to go to City Council on that issue alone. So tonight all we can discuss is what City Council has approved for use of their property.

Mr. Dobson: Right.

Ms. Devlin: Alright, anything else to present. Did you bring a site plan?

Mr. Dobson: I've been to Cannery Way and I took pictures of the spot where I would be. It will be down by the clock. I can be twenty paces from the clock back into Cannery Way. I would be thirty feet from the street. Here are the pictures.

Ms. Devlin: Would like to enter these into the record as an exhibit?

Mr. Dobson: Yes ma'am.

Ms. Devlin: Thank you.

Mr. Dobson: Basically, I put the sign up where I would like to move my cart, to set it. This picture from the street; this would be the cart that I would like to use at Cannery Way. And this is basically where I would like to park, in the parking lot in the back of Cannery Way. This shows you the actual site.

Mr. Foxwell: What are your hours going to be up there?

Mr. Dobson: From 10:00 to 2:00 sir. From 10:00 in the morning to 2:00 in the afternoon.

Mr. Foxwell: If it's bad weather you're not coming?

Mr. Dobson: Right. I don't sell hotdogs when it's raining because I find most people don't come in and buy hotdogs in the rain.

Mr. Foxwell: If somebody's going along the street, say in an automobile, and they may look over there and say they want a hotdog, in other words would that be holding traffic up if maybe they waited until they got the hotdog?

Mr. Dobson: I don't think he would have to sit there and hold up traffic, no sir. Across the street from where I'm going to be renting is a parking lot.

Mr. Foxwell: And you said you are going to be seasonal?

Mr. Dobson: Well, they said that I had to have a seasonal permit which would be in the fall of the year. But basically, now it's getting colder and I basically sell hotdogs in the fall. I sell them all year round, but the seasonal would be this time of the year, until the snow falls. The season would be the fall and summertime.

Mr. Foxwell: I think you said you were a hotdog vendor. How long have you been doing that?

Mr. Dobson: Maybe three years. Mondays I go to Denton; Tuesdays I go to Greensburg; Wednesdays I'm in Denton; Thursdays I would like to come to Cambridge; Fridays I'm in Ridgely. So basically I've been doing it like this for three or four years.

Mr. Foxwell discussed if there could be conflicts with other activities on Thursdays.

Ms. Devlin: to clarify, the City Council approved the use of Cannery Way by Mr. Dobson on Thursdays between 10:00 and 2:00.

Ms. Devlin asked if there was anyone else to speak on this topic. Ms. Devlin swore in the next witness.

Unknown Female Speaker: I think that Mr. Dobson's starting a great trend in Cambridge and I'm delighted that he's come to Cambridge.

Mr. Dave Thatcher: 1007 Locust Street. I really wanted to ask you, this is for my own education; the City Council has already approved him to use that, why does he have to come here before the Board

Ms. Devlin: Because we are actually the Board or authority that gives the special exception which is what he needs to operate it. The reason the city got involved is because he wants it on city property. If it was going to be on his own property he would need a straight application without city involvement; just as the applicant, Mr. Dobson, would have applied on his own with no city involvement if he owned the property.

Mr. Thatcher: Applied to whom?

Ms. Devlin: Applied to the Board of Zoning Appeals for the special exception which is required by our code.

Mr. Thatcher: I see.

Mr. Tony Thomas: 420 Race Street. The thing is I think that this committee and the city have to consider the size where it's going to be. (Vendor Carts) can go up to ten feet. I think if you approve this you're going to have other vendors trying to come in here. So we've got to control this. Believe me it can get so carried away. You don't know where the trash is going to go, if he's going to police the area after he's finished. The menu is also a concern. Mr. Dobson said at the last meeting that he was going to get into soups. All of this has to be done through the Health Department, what they call a hazard report, hazardous food control. I think I had one of first in Cambridge years ago. We set it off before the restaurant was ever opened. We basically had to go through a lot. We had to have a hucksters (Peddler's) license, number one. I don't know if they talked to him about that or not. The thing is where is that cart going to be parked? Somebody brought up a good question. When we were in operation, we did stop cars, believe me. He's on the wrong side of the street because there's no parking over there. But the main thing is the menu, the size of the cart. The hours are fine. Once you give it out you open up a big can of worms. That's just a few words of wisdom.

Ms. Devlin: Thank you. Well noted.

Mr. Cooke: I have a question.

Ms. Devlin: Yes. Mr. Thomas, Mr. Cooke has a question.

Mr. Cooke: The applicant has shown us a picture of a cart so...

Mr. Thomas: I've never seen it.

Mr. Cooke: And your issue about trash, that's assuming that... you're a restaurateur and you are controlled by first parties within the state in your operation. The trash is really your responsibility to take care of right? The state doesn't come in and inspect your trash.

Mr. Thomas: What I'm concerned with is not only just around Race Street. You know the cans of this and that. We've got to keep it looking like one of the ten best towns in the United States.

Mr. Cooke: Your reference to menu, what do you feel is an appropriate action of any government body with regard to...

Mr. Thomas: The menu is basically hotdogs, coffee and any type of hotdog. It could be a knockwurst, bratwurst, anything that goes into a hotdog roll. All this is regulated by the Health Department. But he can put one there. It has to have hot and cold running water, it has to have (inaudible). That's entirely up to the Health Department, if he gets past the Health Department, that's not your case. I know what I went through to do it.

Mr. Cooke: Do you feel that we should place conditions on the decision that we make here. Do you feel that it would be appropriate to specify the kind of food, hotdogs and not hamburgers?

Mr. Thomas: Do you think the menu should be controlled, either by this Board or by the Health Department?

Ms. Devlin: I was going to say I'm not sure that we would have the authority to control the menu but...

Mr. Cooke: He brought it up.

Ms. Devlin: That's what I'm saying, I don't think we have the authority to control the menu but the Health Department certainly does.

Mr. Thomas: The problem is the laws have changed and Health Department regulations have gotten stricter. By the time you go through all of this it's just (inaudible). If he gets through the Health Department and abides by all the rules and regulations... But the size of the park is another thing. You can have them from four feet to twenty feet. In DC there's two and three people inside a hotdog stand.

Ms. Devlin: Just to clarify, Mr. Thomas, this is basically a cart that is towed along on the back. You cannot be inside the cart, it's basically standing alongside the cart to serve them.

Mr. Thomas: They are all towed in and they're all called carts.

Ms. Devlin: Yes, I'm just explaining to you what it looks like. It is not a food-mobile type of thing. Alright, Mr. Dobson is heading up to the podium. He may be getting ready to show you a photo.

Mr. Dobson: I have a picture of my cart and I do have two carts.

Mr. Dobson: I'd like to respond. Basically all I sell is hotdogs and hot sausages, potato chips and sodas, chili and cheese. These are condiments that go on my hotdogs. But I won't sell... I understand people like John because they sell different kinds, knockwurst, bratwurst. I do not sell any of that. All I sell is a basic hotdog and a basic hot sausage. Those are the only two things I sell and the condiments. The size of my cart, you have a picture of it, people don't stand in the cart. It is the same as the other cart only it has a cover where you can stand inside out of the rain. So basically it's only two feet longer than my other cart with the umbrella on it. I understand the cart you're talking about there, wagons you call them, you can cook anything in them. Mine you can't cook anything but hotdogs and hot sausage.

Board Member: Question. How long is your cart?

Mr. Dobson: I'd say four, add two more feet. Make it four feet. I can tow this behind my truck. I also have a wagon that I can push the other cart up inside of. That's why I asked you if I could park in the back of Cannery Way.

Ms. Devlin: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Dobson.

Ms. Devlin: Alright, if there are no more comments, I would entertain a motion to close testimony. Board members properly acted to close the meeting to additional testimony.

Mr. Cooke: My only concern, and I would suggest that perhaps if we were to approve it, is to make the restriction that is restricted to the carts that have been shown to us. I have no other problem with this application, with either the documentation or the pictures that were taken; so that we don't end up with something that's twelve feet.

Mr. Manning: I have no problem with this but I would like a restriction that this is for this fall and this fall only so we can find out if there are any problems. If there are we can address them and if there are no problems then we can extend it.

Ms. Devlin: Yes, and based on the City Council action that's what we can act on this fall 2013.

Mr. Manning: Yes. So Mr. Dobson will have to come back.

Ms. Devlin: Yes.

Mr. Foxwell: I think we want to be business friendly. So I see no problems with it at this time. Like my coworker said, maybe this fall and after that he can come back. It would be pretty wise if he comes back because we could see how he's been doing. And see if he's satisfied with the traffic and the money he makes and see if he wants to continue. But otherwise I have no problem.

Mr. Brooks: The only other restriction I would like to put on it is that he comply with all the Health Department regulations and provide his own utilities as included in the special exception standards, that the hot water and cold water are brought there by him, that he has that available.

Board member: I make the motion that Dobson's Dogs be allowed to use Cannery Way for this fall-2013-using the cart that he has now and that he abide by city imposed regulations.

Board member: I second that.

Ms. Devlin: Discussion. Health Department is county, so would you amend it to city and county?

Board Member: Change it to municipal I guess, or city and county. It makes no difference.

Ms. Devlin: If you wouldn't mind, I'd prefer the delineation. Okay, there's a motion on the floor. Do I have a second?

Male Unknown: Second.

Ms. Devlin: All in favor.

All: Aye.

Ms. Devlin: Opposed. It passed unanimously. Mr. Dobson, you're set for fall of 2013.

Board member: It runs until December 20th.

Ms. Devlin: Yes, that would be fall of 2013. You're fine until December 20th, of 2013.

Mr. Dobson: Thank you.


Ms. Devlin convened the 2nd public hearing on the following case. There were no additional persons that wanted sworn in.

BZA#03 FY 13/14, 314 Mill St., James Harwood (owner), request for Special Exception (SE) to operate a Bed and Breakfast at the 314 Mill Street, Tax Map 301- Parcel 48 per Section 230: Table of Uses by Base Zoning District; Section 234: Bed and Breakfast/Tourist Home. The property is zoned NC-3.

Brian Manning: I'm going to have to excuse myself. The applicant lives two doors away from me. I'm too close to the situation to make an unbiased opinion. I submitted the proper paperwork to staff and it is my desire to recuse myself.

Mr. Brandewie provided a staff report. This application is requesting a special exception to allow a bed and breakfast in an NC-3 zone. The property is located at 314 Mill Street, tax map 301, parcel 48. Bed and breakfasts are permitted in the NC zones through the granting of a special exception.

Mr. Brandewie: The staff report that Ms. Roan prepared included a number of exhibits as well as staff recommendations. The package of information included: formal application form as well as a response to the various requirements that are associated with bed and breakfasts, in addition to floor plans showing three different levels for the residential unit in which rooms would be used for guest rooms. Included also are aerial photographs as well as copies of related zoning ordinance references that apply to special exceptions and bed and breakfasts, in addition to photographs of the property. He provided three other exhibits including: (1) a draft set of minutes from the Planning and Zoning Commission which met last Thursday to hear the application; (2) an evaluation by the city engineering staff on the parking arrangements; and (3) a copy of the existing parking regulations that are contained in the zoning ordinance as it may apply to special exception
The staff report runs through the eight general conditions that are associated with all special exceptions and staff's conclusion is that the applicant can meet the general conditions. In addition there are several standards specifically for bed and breakfasts under Section 234. In her commentary to the Planning and Zoning Commission, the City Planner indicates she believes that the applicant can meet the specific standards for bed and breakfasts.

Staff proceeded to review the specific standards but pointed out there is one change that came about today over an issue that has to do with parking. Essentially the parking requirements for bed and breakfasts are spelled out in the parking regulations and they require two spaces for the dwelling unit itself and the residents who live there and one additional parking space off-street for each guest room. So in a sense the total parking requirements for this specific special exception would be eight. Mr. Brandewie stated that in the City Planner's presentation to the Planning and Zoning Commission she commented that there has been flexibility shown in the past for bed and breakfasts with the interpretation that you could on-street parking could be included as part of that total. However, she wished to correct herself and her recollection is that the past four or five bed and breakfasts applications, possibly more, that have been through the special exception process have all been required to provide off-street parking based on the number of guest rooms that are being provided. So her initial assessment that on-street parking could be included as part of that total is not accurate.

Ms. Devlin: Ms. Roane made a statement last week which she realized, after the fact, was in error. And she clarified it through the record. So in some respects a precedent has been set through Planning and Zoning and the Board of Zoning Appeals process.

Mr. Brandewie: In the minutes from the Planning and Zoning Commission meeting last week there was a two-to-two split vote. The motion was made in favor of the recommendation with conditions. One such condition was to ask the city engineering staff to evaluate both the on-street and off-street parking. As a result of the two-to-two split vote there was no recommendation forthcoming from the Planning Commission. City engineering staff did evaluate the property both from an off-street and on-street perspective. A memo from Brent Jett, Asst. City Engineer, summarizes those findings. His assessment was that there could be five off-street parking spaces in the rear utilizing a small grass alcove which is a fenced-in grass area next to the rear garage off the alley. Additionally four on-street parking spaces could be added toward that total. If a strict interpretation of the code is made, on street parking may not be appropriate. Staff is of the opinion while there are minimum parking standards, the code does provide the Planning and Zoning and Board of Zoning Appeals and staff, with flexibility in interpreting and applying those standards, especially in the downtown area which certainly can't meet every off-street parking requirement. The staff would recommend approval to the Board of Zoning Appeals as with the Planning and Zoning Commission. Staff believes that B and B's are an important part of the economy for Cambridge. The successful bed and breakfasts we have now seem to be doing well and do play an important role as far as our tourism and hotel-type accommodations that they provide. Staff believes that it is appropriate to provide some alternative for these large homes other than single family owner occupied uses. Whether the applicant, is willing to consider a reduced number of rooms based on the number of off-street parking spaces that can be provided may be a question to further explore. There's also room in the parking standards for satellite parking as well. It may be possible the applicant can demonstrate that there are other nearby parking lots available and can obtain permission to use those satellite parking spaces as part of his total, as part of his application package.

Mr. Cooke: We don't get a lot of these bed and breakfast applications coming through here. Was it staff's testimony that the Planning Commission and/or the city is requiring them to... what has been the experience with prior applications with regard to the requirement for x number of off-street parking spaces?

Mr. Brandewie: According to the City Planner, they have been required to provide those off-street parking spots. As I recall in one situation they did have to expand an area to provide off-street parking. The other B & B's , had sufficient off street parking on their property to accommodate the number of guests.

Mr. Cooke: My other question to you is have you visited the property?

Mr. Brandewie: Yes.

Mr. Cooke: Did you take a look at the parking in the rear?

Mr. Brandewie: Yes.

Mr. Cooke: What did you think? Your man says he can get four in that alcove. What do you think?

Mr. Brandewie: Well, I think his comments were that it appears there is almost forty feet. If you assume ten feet per car it may work. I think they'd recommend an additional, some kind of hard surface paving material be put down. Three to four might work.

Mr. Foxwell: how many bed and breakfasts are in Cambridge?

Mr. Brandewie: There are two that are operating on High Street and Mill Street. There were two on Locust Street that are no longer operating. It is believed by staff that the one on Oakley Street does not provide off-street parking.

Ms. Devlin: When she went through the process she had sufficient land to do it.

Ms. Devlin: The application has no number of rooms on it. The write-up states five to six. The sketch shows five to six. To your knowledge is there a hard number that we are working with?

Mr. Brandewie: Staff's understanding is that there are six room with some that can be used both in combination with the other rooms or possibly as a separate type of accommodation.

Mr. Harwood, 314 Mill Street testified next. The very first thing that I would like to mention is the parking situation. On my way, I again checked at my street in reference to the Cambridge House where there are only five parking spaces off-street. Invariably, whether it be Mill, High or Locust Streets, invariably, your guests park on-street, even if there is a space available to them. I have made two overtures which possibly I should have an answer by tomorrow in writing that would be a satellite parking location. One is within the same area. The other is the church parking lot which would be valid parking, not a problem. However, the reality is at no time when you have a bed and breakfast, do you actually have all of your rooms occupied unless you are having a wedding party. That's rare. The most important thing is in reference to 105 feet of frontage that I have immediately in front of my house. A question was raised in reference to the meeting last week, when they have a funeral at the nearby funeral parlor every single on-street parking space in the immediate area, especially if it's for a fallen hero, is occupied. That actually is not going to be problem with the bed and breakfast. With a bed and breakfast you have people there at night; during the day they're out looking at the sights. They're not parked there all day. They could, but they're not. The reality is such that we are using those particular spaces that you're paying for. Now I can solve one of the problems immediately. I'm handicapped. I am entitled to a handicap space in front of my house. That would free up the garage. I also am required to have two spaces for the ownership. I don't have a wife. I only require one space. We're being told that we are business friendly by the town, yet all of a sudden at the eleventh hour I have a parking issue thrown at me which has not been utilized with reference to any of the others. The Cambridge House only has four spaces off the street. You can push a fifth one in there, but that's it. And they actually have nine rooms. Now whether or not they utilize them, I would tend to doubt it. They also wanted to have a requirement of that in the event that I would sell it would come up for a complete review in reference to this special exception. Yet Cambridge House has changed a number of times. No one has ever brought up the parking issue. Why is it in front, only on this one street, this one section, 300 block of Mill Street, is there only parking on one side of the street? Yet to the water there's parking on both sides of the street all the way from Church all the way down to Water Street there's parking on both sides of the street. Only in front of my house, Linda's house, Joe's house, Brian's house, is there a requirement for only one side of the street parking. I'm not against it, but if there's a complaint as to a limited number of parking spaces invariably all my neighbors park in the alley. The owners on the other side of the street park in their driveways or on their property. There are very few cars that are actually on Mill Street. Invariably there are five spaces that could be put in front of my house at any given time that are totally unencumbered by anyone else's required use, or even desired use. Unless people are actually visiting someone on that particular block, it is only for the church and the funeral home that anyone else is ever using it other than a contractor coming in to do some work in the house and that's a short-lived thing. No bed and breakfast has a full occupancy every single day. Invariably, it's on the weekends. I cannot see the problem with on-street parking. I'm not trying to get anything to change, but why is it I am told that invariably every single one of the bed and breakfasts did not have to go through these hoops. Yet I am being asked to go through these hoops. Less than two hours before this meeting I was approached by the gentleman that I have been working with and was told you are going to have a problem with reference to parking and that satellite parking may be an option to research. Yes, I've spoken to the church and I've spoken to one of my neighbors who easily said they would park on the street in and allow me to use it if I have that much of an overflow. In reference to the church, you have a huge parking lot on the other side of Glasgow Street, a half a block away. I don't know why this has become an issue. I can take down the fence that I have with roses on. I can possibly put an additional four cars there which would then give me nine cars across the back. But it would lose part of the beauty of that particular house. As far as possibly putting in a blacktop parking area in the rear, the entire alley is stone. I had two feet of stone with grass seed on top so that it appears that it is grass. But I have larger boulders underneath the stone, the aggregate. Purposely it was designed in such a way that it looks like grass. You could park a mac truck in there and it wouldn't sink. This was all predicated on a problem that was created when I had to have the air conditioning units put up on the roof. The hoist was approximately a 20-ton truck and that did sink five feet into the backyard. That's all been rebuilt with a tremendous amount of stone and aggregate under that entire area. The most important thing is that very few people, if any, are going to ever see the inside of that beautiful house. I wanted to make this available to people who would come in to see the beauty of this particular city. I want to be able to put that particular house on the available list, not necessarily for the people who actually sit and live in that particular accommodation. It is a beautiful house. The other houses immediately adjacent to it are just as beautiful. But none of them open their doors. This would be open on a regular basis for people who want to be able to see what that particular property looks like. I'd be more than happy to answer any questions.

Board Member: I think you've really addressed the parking quite a bit. I'd like to address a couple of other issues. How easy is it to transfer the bed and breakfast special exception from you to a new owner? If we were to give you the special exception and you were to sell the house, I understand it is listed, would that also go with it?

Mr. Harwood: The property actually has been listed for two-and-a-half years. There are no takers. I did have one particular company that had expressed a very real interest. They wanted to bring in 1,500 jobs and create a new company here. They wanted to create a company to do the manufacturing here. Everything was lined up, all their financing, everything else, they were not able to get a small bridge loan from the state. That would have been 1,500 jobs from day one. They wanted to use this for their executives' residence. That is the only offer that has been made in reference to the property. Would I continue trying to sell the property, I tend to doubt it. If this were a bed and breakfast, I would be taking it off the market. If I were going to transfer the property, I think it's reasonable for a deal to be made by the city, all the various departments that might be necessary, to make sure that the caliber of the individuals or persons that would be going to operate that particular operation would not only be legitimate but have the wherewithal and the knowledge to do it. I do not profess to be a perfect person when it comes to a bed and breakfast; however, I have already hired people who are. And those namely are the people who are operating the Comfort Inn which has done an exceptional job and has turned around that property to a point where it's 100% (occupied) most of the time. And they have already surpassed the Hyatt as far as quality. These are the people who are assisting me in reference to setting it up and managing and administering this particular use.

Board Member: This brings me to my second point. I'm glad you addressed that because I was wondering who was going to be managing the operation. If you are disabled it would be difficult. It's a very strenuous business.

Mr. Harwood: I have had 147 people working under me in fourteen different states. I'm more than capable as far as management, but hospitality, that's an entirely different sticky wicket. We already had plans in reference to historical garb. We are presently working on the menus and things such as that. We want to put forward the best possible for making people feel comfortable. As far as the beauty of the house, that stands by itself. And a fortune has been spent bringing it about to the current standards.

Board Member: Let me circle back to the parking real quick. How many people would be coming in from the Comfort Inn to work on the breakfast shift?

Mr. Harwood: Actually none of them would be coming in on a daily basis. In other words, they would have cameras set up. We have maid service which is going to be (inaudible). That would be two people, and as far as a chef and an assistant, that's two people that actually right now live within half a block. So they won't be driving over.

Board Member: How about the servers? I would assume the chef and the other person won't be bringing it out to the table.

Mr. Harwood: One server (inaudible) they actually live right now on Academy Street.

Board Member: My concern would be what happens if you hire somebody and they happen to live in Trappe? You can't limit your workforce to only people who live within two or three blocks.

Mr. Harwood: Well that's very true, but if they require one parking space or two parking spaces and they park half a block away or they can park very easily on Church Street, they can park on the previous block of Mill Street where there is parking on both sides of the street. It's very easy to tell employees that they can't park right in front of the place. Every single restaurant, every single hotel, every single service business basically reserves spaces that are easily accommodated to your front door to just guests. And it's a little bit strange that I am being asked to not allow people to park in the front and then come in through the main hall of the house, instead they have to come in through the kitchen.

Board Member: How many years have you been operating bed and breakfasts?

Mr. Harwood: I've not been operating, however I've owned about five or six of them over the last 45 years.

Board Member: You said you are going to bring in a management team. Have you ever thought that maybe local employees would be available to do the job?

Mr. Harwood: The answer is yes; however, these people are local.

Board Member: If the parking thing is solved at all, I was just wondering does each room have a bathroom?

Mr. Harwood: No.

Male Unknown: If you have six people staying there, how many bathrooms do you have?

Mr. Harwood: Four full baths.

Male Unknown: Will you put a sign up in front of the building advertising bed and breakfasts?

Mr. Harwood: Absolutely.

Board Member: You said a maximum stay of fourteen consecutive days. Suppose I stayed fourteen days, but yet I went away for a trip and came back in two days, can I come back for another fourteen days?

Mr. Harwood: Of course. The restriction is that people can't stay for more than fourteen days at one time. When you check out, if you check back in one minute later it's actually starting another fourteen days. But I am not trying to get around a particular stipulation. The probability of anyone staying at a bed and breakfast for more than fourteen days is highly unusual. Most of the time people will stay for a weekend and then they have to get back to work somewhere else.

Board Member: Well your house inside is beautiful. I don't know whether you know it or not but years ago I knew the Phillips that owned the house. He had a son Levi Phillips. Levi Phillips was the last one there. When I was in high school we had parties there of different types. At the time it was nice looking inside.

Mr. Harwood: It would be my pleasure to invite you over to see what I have done.

Mr. Harwood: Actually what I've done is I've been in contact with a lot of the relatives of the Phillips. I have a lot of people who at one time or another had reason, because of their executive employment or what have you, they were frequently at that particular building. The main question I asked was the feeling as far as the furnishings so that I could duplicate as close as I could to the type of furnishings that were there. Now taking into account we have now something that meets the standards of today's requirements, all of the bathrooms have been brought up to the 21st century. However, a lot of the fixtures are the original fixtures whether it was from Venice, from England, from France. Each one of the bathrooms has a different theme. The various fixtures were brought over...

Ms. Devlin: Mr. Harwood, we realize you have done a magnificent job. If we can continue? Mr. Foxworth, do you have any questions?

Mr. Foxworth: Besides fire extinguishers....because we've had carbon monoxide extinguishers too, I think that should be a requirement. A few years ago down at Ocean City we had one or two house...because of leaky gases, so I think one of those in each room should be a requisite.

Mr. Harwood: Well the carbon monoxide would be coming from the point where the heaters or the cooking were taking place. The kitchen does not have any gas. In the basement there's gas for the radiators, there's gas for the hot water heaters. Those are the only locations, the basement. And there is throughout the entire place not only fire extinguishers but also CO2 and carbon monoxide sensors. That's all part of the alarm system that I have.

Mr. Cooke: I also live on Mill Street. I can't imagine how I managed to not meet you. I've been there twelve years and I've seen you. Do you live at the property?

Mr. Harwood: Yes.

Mr. Cooke: That's your official residence?

Mr. Harwood: Well, for tax purposes I did have another residence which right now is up for sale in the Washington, DC area. I've only been there one day a week for the past nine months. The rest of the time I'm here.

Mr. Cooke: Okay. If I would ask for your driver's license, what would your driver's license say?

Mr. Harwood: Right now it says Rockville, Maryland. I'm in the process right now of getting that changed along with my insurance.

Mr. Cooke: You understand that a bed and breakfast requires you to live on the property. That has to be your official residence.

Mr. Harwood: Absolutely. That's already in the works. The only last thing I need to do is to go over to people who are responsible for voting and change my place of principal residence.

Mr. Cooke: I'm sympathetic with some of your arguments at the beginning about standards being applied to you that didn't seem to be applied in the past to other businesses. Also I can understand if there is an owner occupancy requirement why these other properties that you alluded to had transferred ownership, why haven't they come in here?

Mr. Harwood: I could clarify that. It's quite possible there are no transferability requirements by the Board of Zoning and Appeals. It's regulated under section 71 that unless the Board requires that, there is no formal requirement that any additional information goes back to the BZA if it transfers.

Board Member: It would appear to me that this goes beyond the scope of this particular case.

Mr. Harwood: One of the points raised during last week was that there should be in reference to this particular project a re-inspection when the property changes hands.

Board Member: How would we know if the property was owner occupied when it changes hands? It could be sold to some corporation some place and they just (inaudible).

Mr. Cooke: I think that would become obvious. I think that was my only concern with regard to your testimony, whether or not you actually lived there. Would you have any problem with placing a condition on you that you reside at the property.

Mr. Harwood: Absolutely not.

Ms. Devlin: Mr. Harwood, I have one or two questions if you don't mind. Per city code you are required to have a lavatory for your use only, yet I don't see it identified in your submittal.

Mr. Harwood: Now when you say exclusively...

Ms. Devlin: Yes, that's how it is called in the code.

Mr. Harwood: That would be the second floor bathroom (inaudible).

Ms. Devlin: And you're using the third floor.

Mr. Harwood: I am using two of the rooms on the third floor and one of the rooms on the second floor as a bedroom. The bathroom is immediately adjacent to that.

Ms. Devlin: The submittal that I have shows that on the third floor there is a guestroom four and five, two rooms for the owner and one listed as office. And that is on the third floor.

Mr. Harwood: Correct.

Ms. Devlin: And then on the second floor you're showing all these, identified by number, you are showing them as guest suites and/or rooms.

Mr. Harwood: Not the one in the rear.

Ms. Devlin: The one in the rear I'm assuming is what you're showing as number six. And this is your submittal sir. So I have a strong concern with that, as you can appreciate. The other thing that really concerns me is the code doesn't require individual bathrooms unfortunately. Yet I know the trend with bed and breakfasts in this country is B and B's have individual bathrooms. It would certainly get you a higher return on the dollar of investment. But what concerns me is the code calls for these to be convenient lavatories and, yes, you do have four bathrooms in this house, but I myself, if I am staying on the second floor, in the morning I don't think it would be convenient to walk down to the public space to use the bathroom. So I'm very concerned about that because what I see is convenient, are the bathrooms on the second and third floor, not the first floor.

Mr. Harwood: I didn't say the first floor. The first floor bathroom is primarily utilized exclusively for the purpose if someone is in the parlor, the kitchen or the dining room and wants to use the bathroom.

Ms. Devlin: So it's an additional bathroom for general use.

Mr. Harwood: Correct.

Ms. Devlin: All right. Then we're coming down to three bathrooms out of your four. And by code you must have one for yourself. So then we are coming down to possibly six bedrooms with two bathrooms. There could be two occupants of adults and minor children in each room. Those numbers are staggering. I have a very strong concern about that.

Mr. Harwood: Well here again it is infrequent when you are going to have that many rooms which are occupied. Specifically, what I am going to be doing is utilizing one of the bedrooms on the second floor, one on the third floor, four guests on the west. Of course there may be an additional number of people coming in. Whether they're related or not, that's unimportant. However, the suites are the rooms immediately facing to the (inaudible) on the second floor. Those are going to be sitting rooms specifically for that bedroom.

Ms. Devlin: Yes I am very familiar with how B and B's are normally set up. I'm an avid user of B and Bs. But again you are calling out to get six, you're calling out what you have number three, it could be three or a combined two rooms for number two to create a suite. I'm sorry, that's number one and then you've got the two rooms for number two for a suite. What we have to decide on is your application, Mr. Harwood, and you have are (requesting) for up to six rooms. So we have to consider all situations. So we cannot sit here and say well he's probably only going to rent out two rooms so it should be fine. We have to go by the information you gave us. And that's where I'm very disturbed by this fact. I don't know how I mentally can get around this to possibly have that kind of use of shared baths. Anything else at this time? I'll hold comment on this, that's the only thing I wanted to discuss with you at this point. Is there anything else you would like to say Mr. Harwood, or would you like us to move forward?

Mr. Harwood: Please move forward.

Ms. Devlin: Okay, do you have any other witness here tonight to speak for you?

Mr. Harwood: That I don't know.

Ms. Devlin: Alright. Is there anybody in support of this application? Please step forward. Mr. Thomas.

Tony Thomas, (603 William Street): This town (inaudible) here sixteen years. This bed and breakfast, if it could be worked out, could be one of the most prestigious bed and breakfasts in this town. The house is probably one of the nicest (inaudible). The other thing you've got to consider is other people have homes too. Would you rather see them all cut up into apartments or a bed and breakfast? I don't know today how you can afford, Mr. Harwood, to stay there. He's not doing this to take in extra money to pay the taxes or anything like this. I think it would be wonderful, I think it would be one of the biggest tourist attractions here to stay in a home like this, if it's just for a weekend or if they're here for, or whatever. As far as parking, I think that could be worked out, the bathrooms and all could be worked out. Mr. Harwood offered his house to the public. Very few people get an opportunity to walk into something like this. I think it would be great for tourism and great for Cambridge. And again we're one of the top ten towns, we're going (inaudible) top houses. Thank you.

Ms. Devlin: Thank you. Anyone else wish to speak in support? Alright, is there anyone in the audience who wishes to speak against this request? I'll get to you, but I know you've got to be sworn in so sit tight for a minute. Mr. (inaudible) had his hand up first.

Andrew Pasden: 312 Mill Street, which is the house immediately adjacent to 314 Mill Street. As I said I want to be perfectly clear that my wife and I strongly oppose the approval of this application. I believe this application is seriously flawed. The first thing that I want to bring out is the possible procedural flaws that have happened so far in this process. There was a public meeting of P and Z held October 17th at 1:00 in the afternoon. October 17th was a Thursday. I happened to find out about the meeting simply by coincidence and I know Mr. Harwood found out fifteen minutes before. So there was no public notice. Most of my neighbors that I've talked to had no idea that the meeting ever happened. Also, at that meeting one of the P and Z commission members recused herself based on a business relationship with Mr. Harwood, and then withdrew that recusal and later voted in favor of the application. We talked about the incorrect information that was given, the on-street parking being counted in the application. We have since found out that that's not true. At this point if we considered that, offering that type of variance, we're setting a precedent that we may not wish to live with anytime in the future. Mr. Harwood's house, as we all said, is currently for sale. He admits to owning another residence somewhere in Maryland which is his habitual residence as he admitted to tonight. Up until recently he was strictly a part time resident of Cambridge, coming here generally on Wednesday or Thursday and leaving Sunday morning. And Mr. Harwood claims that he wishes to sell the other house and move fulltime to Cambridge. That's all well and good, but I think approval of an application should not be based on intentions, but should be based on verifiable facts. We talked a lot about the off-street parking and the insufficiency of off-street parking. Parking as we talked about is only permitted on one side of Mill Street. My rough estimate is maybe we could get sixteen cars on that part of Mill Street. There are nine residences in addition to 314 Mill Street that rely on the ability to park on Mill Street. One of those is an apartment building that has six apartments in it. We talked about having off-street parking on the other side of the street where there is no parking, but there are only two of the ten residences that have off-street parking available and there are only two spaces involved with that. We talked about the funeral home and how Christ Church impact the parking situation. We talked about insufficient bathrooms. Per ordinance there might be inadequate bathroom facilities for each guest. Unfortunately, adequate is not defined in code. The house at 314 has four full baths and one half bath. Of course a half bath doesn't count as an adequate bath for the standard we're trying to meet here. Also one full bath on the first floor. All the proposed guest rooms are located on the second and third floor. And the owner must designate a bathroom for his own use. So Mr. Harwood says he's going to use one on the second floor. That means there are three other bathrooms, one's on the first floor, one's on the second floor, one's on the third floor. I don't know if that's adequate but it sure isn't convenient. As Ms. Devlin pointed out, each guestroom is permitted two adults and two or more minor children. That means there could be 24 or more people staying in that facility at any given time sharing three bathrooms. I think that's a serious health and safety issue. Personally, my wife and I often stay at B and B's and the number one criteria we use in choosing a B and B is availability of a private bath. I think proposing (limited) bath facilities in case (inaudible). Lack of serious attention (inaudible) first class B and B. As Ms. Devlin again pointed out Mr. Harwood's application does not designate a bathroom for his own private use. The application also does not provide a schedule for the proposed B and B. Is it going to be offered 365 days a year? Only on weekends, on demand or is it going to be seasonal? In the meeting we attended on October 17th Mr. Harwood stated that the management of the Comfort Inn may become his partner in this B and B. I believe that corporate ownership violates at least the spirit of the ordinance that calls for (owner occupancy) of operation. Now we have the issue of the alley. Mr. Harwood's off-street parking is located off an alley that's not maintained by the city and hasn't been for at least 25 years and probably a long time before that. Instead the residents, nine of us, who have access to that alley maintain it at our own expense. He does not approach the other users of the alley regarding his proposal and how it might affect them. I tried to determine the ownership of the alley. The deeds going back to 1910 are silent on this issue. Researching on that is necessary. At one point a Church was located on that property, with access to the alley. The other thing that I'm afraid of is the parking situation on Mill Street if Mr. Harwood is granted four spaces, could seriously impact the nature of our community. Then all of a sudden we have parking for a commercial operation. I just want to finish with a comment that Mr. Harwood has not discussed this application with any of his neighbors prior to submitting the application. Thanks for the opportunity to present this information.

Mr. Cooke: I'm not sure I completely followed your discussion about ownership of the alley. I missed some of that. Could you...

Andrew Pasden: There's an alley that goes behind our houses. The residents share the use of that alley. It's not owned by the city. It's unclear who has the ownership of the alley. However the residents maintain the alley at their own expense. That's where the off-street parking would be. And so we're concerned, or at least I'm concerned about the use of the alley, the accessibility of the alley, wear and tear on that alley by the presence of a commercial operation.

Board Member: How wide is the alley? Is it wide enough for two cars to meet each other or just one car?

Andrew Pasden: One car.

Board Member: But they can go either way? The alley's open?

Andrew Pasden: No, it's closed at the other end. The only access it from Church Street.

Ms. Devlin: Thank you Mr. Pasden. Mrs. Benson, did you want to speak? You were not sworn in. Raise your right hand please. Do you solemnly swear or affirm under penalties of perjury the testimony you're about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

Ms. Benson: I do.

Ms. Benson: My name is Mariane Benson, co-owner of the Cambridge House Bed and Breakfast at 112 High Street. There have been several references during Mr. Harwood's testimony to our bed and breakfast. A couple of points to be made. We have six guest rooms and there is sufficient parking in the back for those rooms. Should there ever be an overflow, there's a grassy area at the back of the house and we have an understanding with (adjacent property owners) that along a strip of grass along the hedge, it is for additional parking there. We were made aware of this when we purchased the bed and breakfast so that is something we knew about. Perhaps the difference in our situations is that we are continuing ownership of the bed and breakfast whereas you are a new owner. The question has been raised with regard to your property. The only other thing that I would like to mention is that the other owners who operate the bed and breakfasts here in Cambridge are a very collegial group and should Mr. Harwood become (an owner) we hope maybe he would join in that (group). Thank you.

Ms. Devlin: Thank you. Anybody else that wishes to speak against the request? Please go to the podium and identify yourself.

Joseph Perez: My name is Joseph Perez. I live at 316 Mill Street. I just found out about this. I didn't really form a solid decision till thinking more about the process and what Jim is doing. I've known Jim since he moved in the first day. We've had a good neighborly relationship. In fact I have a key to his house; where he was living in Rockville and (going) back and forth. When I saw the sign, my first thought was where are these people going to park and who is going to run this. With Jim's disability, Mr. Brooks you brought that up and addressed it. Jim, you brought that up and worked it out. I'm still wondering how well that relationship might work long term. I park in the alley behind the house. That's my primary entrance and exit. My house is an apartment. I live in one of the apartments and rent the others. The house has always been that way. It's never been a pure rental. I'm not allowed to ignore (inaudible). In the past I've had issues with Jim's workers, visitors whatever, parking where they don't belong, whether it's in front of my garage or in the alley itself. It was brought up it's not a two-way alley. It's a private alley, maintained. I'm back to being involved with keeping it clean, neat and trim, safe and secure, nobody back there that doesn't belong. I regularly walk my dog around the block. Mr. Cooke, I've met two of your (inaudible) so I don't know you, so you have no conflict I assume. I see the other bed and breakfasts, they're on my walk. I see the one on Mill Street when they bought it from the Knapps. (Inaudible) what they have and what they've done. That already has more parking than density around the homes. It's more open than we are. It's full on High Street. You have (inaudible) Apartments. You have other rentals along High Street. Tony, you live right around there to see (inaudible). When you come at night, I walk my dog, you park anywhere you can. I could park differently in the alley, I don't, by the garage it's offset. It's not right on the alley. I could park in front as a courtesy to my neighbors, and the city services and the deliveries, what the alley was intended for. I don't. I currently park a vehicle, sometimes two and Gary Rosenthal's property in the alley, his house is for sale. I asked him, he said I could. But when the house is sold I will probably put another car out on the street. Tom's Funeral Home, they have funerals during the day and wakes in the evening. Things fill out because locally it's fine with your neighbors. I guess my point about all of this is I was (inaudible) in the alley. We crossed paths and never mentioned anything. It never came up. Seems like this has been in the works a little while. (Inaudible) he hasn't spoken with any of us. And walking my dogs (inaudible) spoken to Marjorie. I don't think she's really too thrilled with having to compete with the parking, about not being in the loop. I don't want to speak to my other neighbors but I'm getting the same impression. Where this is new, you're dealing with the internal issues of how does it qualify...that's for you to decide...our neighbors have people who come and do work for them. If it's just somebody that's a day laborer that's fine. You want to know who's around. If it's a contractor, they have a vehicle, you know who they are, if they're insured and they're responsible we assume. My understanding he pays you money to rent from him so you have...

Ms. Devlin: We don't have cross dialogue. You are presenting to the Board.

Mr. Cooke: Could you summarize in a couple of sentences what your position is.

Joseph Perez: At this point with this short time the thing about it is I have my doubts.

Mr. Cooke: So you are not in favor of it?

Joseph Perez: Last Friday, people from the city came to (inaudible). I was working on my garage. They put it far from my garage. It just seems like it happens all the time. When the work was (inaudible). I would come home from work; I work with (inaudible). I come home, people that are working on his house, maybe because this driveway that's...is getting muddy this time of year.

Mr. Cooke: Is your chief concern parking?

Joseph Perez: That and who's being around. Is a company running it? Are there other activities like weddings or parties? I want to educate myself of this in a short time.

Ms. Devlin: To clarify the code, bed and breakfast is lodging with breakfast and breakfast is included in the price. It's very simple. It does not allow any types of dinners, etc. So it is very restrictive in that respect.

Joseph Perez: I would say in general, I'm opposed. When the people parking there at a dumpster (inaudible).

Ms. Devlin: Let me see if there are any other questions before you sit down.

Board Member: I have two questions. You said you live in one apartment and you rent out...

Joseph Perez: I live in the house next door. When you face Jim's house, Andy's on the left, my house is the big brick house on the right. It's three apartments. It's been that way since, I live on the first floor and part of the second. The others are rented. Zero complaints.

Board Member: I'm just curious. There're three apartments in your place. The second is there's a garage right next to this area in the back that they're talking about where there'll be parking. Is that your garage or is that his garage?

Joseph Perez: No, my garage actually used to be a barn. It's across the alley. It's got a red roof, tan, two car, it's on the left as you make that corner. Actually, I could park in front of my house, in front of my garage.

Board Member: So your barn is behind Mr. Rosenthall's place.

Joseph Perez: Right.

Ms. Devlin: I just have one question Mr. Perez, if you don't mind since you are one of the caretakers of the alley. Very simple question, the few times that we do have snow do you have that alley plowed?

Joseph Perez: When we had these big storms we'd all pay to have somebody.

Ms. Devlin: Okay, so throughout the year whatever has to be addressed on that alley it is done collectively by a group of properties abutting it that have use of it?

Joseph Perez: There's three or four people. But when it comes time for someone to (inaudible).

Ms. Devlin: So what you're saying there are some hands-on where you go out with a weed whacker or would spray. When you get to a certain level you hire a contractor to come in to do the work.

Joseph Perez: There was a guy that was hired to trim this one hedge, and we hired to put stones down maybe two years ago.

Ms. Devlin: Okay. Thank you Mr. Perez. Mr. Harwood did you want to clarify something? We are not going into any kind of debate. Did you want to clarify a statement at this point?

Mr. Harwood: I wanted to clarify one of the main points. I was not trying to be elusive or secretive. This entire process that I have been going through, as it was mentioned earlier, I was given fifteen minutes in reference to the meeting that occurred last week. I was given brief information in reference to what was happening this week. I have not had an opportunity to speak to the neighbors, only because I didn't know what was coming down the pike. As far as the use of the alley, there are other businesses that are currently on the alley also. There is at least one instance where one of the residents has a business operation in the rear of their house. I'm not trying to compete with anyone. Nor am I adding any additional problems. I do share with everybody else with reference to the maintenance of that particular alley. In reference to my ability to actually run the place, yes, it is going to be hands on. I am purchasing the assistance and also the knowledge of other people, not to be my partners but to advise me and to assist in reference to the running of the place. They won't be coming in as management. They will be offering consultation. They will be reviewing pictures through cameras that are set up to make sure that the staff is doing what they are supposed to be doing, and making sure that things are done the way they are supposed to be done. In reference to the actual work, as far as hiring people, as far as making sure that everything takes place when it is supposed to be taking place, I'm the one that has that responsibility. All they are is advisors, but I have some of the best people in this town who are going to be working with me in reference to that advisory capacity. This is not a corporation that is coming in to actually do management, maintenance, administration or anything. I am the one, and I am the sole one who's going to be responsible. Now as far as my spending time out of this area, yes, I leave Sunday night and I come back Tuesday morning. I spend one day in Washington, DC in my office there and that's it. And in the future I will probably be commuting on that one day each week. But that does not mean that I am going to be neglecting this particular bed and breakfast. Most of the bed and breakfasts in this community operate on the weekends. Initially, I will be starting the same as everybody else. I will be attempting to get people in more often and for longer stays and what have you, but initially it's going to be two day weekends, three day weekends, four day weekends. Things have to go. Now as far as my neighbors, I have gotten along with them very well.

Ms. Devlin: Mr. Harwood, what I asked for was clarification. Now if you'd like to stay on those type of topics. I just want to enter into the record that the application that was in our pack is what actually was filed by you on August 30th.

Mr. Harwood: That is correct. The reason it was filed at that time was because they had to put the notice in the newspaper twice. But as far as when these meetings were going to be, I didn't find out about the meetings until the very last moment.

Ms. Devlin: An